Curse

Principa Discordia · Jun 22, 2005, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

IMO, nothing is stopping people who get slaughtered by Forge runners from doing their own Forge run to level the playing field.

You're missing one very large point; The playing field is level without these rushers abusing the arena. Ask yourself this: Why can these people not keep the "uberl33t" equipment in the high-end arenas and fight fair? I think the answer is simple, they're cowards and/or bullies, and would prefer to wipe out an entire team solo in something like twelve clicks.

Quote:

Whether or not GW is a "grind-free" or "not item based" game is not the point. Isn't one of the long-standing ideals of serious PvP competition to obtain the best tools for the job?

Yes it is, but you're focusing on the wrong area of discussion here. It's not specifically about the tools, it's about the job. The job, in this case, is an under level 10 arena. Simply put, would you use a tank to hammer a nail into a piece of wood? I thought not. That's why you don't use uberl33t weapons in the under level 10 arena, it's overkill. I can't see the fun in smacking down a whole team in under 30 seconds effortlessly just because I twinked equipment onto my new character.

eA-Zaku · Jun 22, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

True, but what about this scenario:

Someone out there was in fact a dickhead, and decided to twink. Then he (let's assume girls wouldn't do this kind of BS

) proceeded to own in low level PvP. Then, since others didn't want to be at a disadvantage, they did it as well. It is only because certain people who thought themselves chivalrous or noble decided NOT to continue this trend that people complain about the problem. If everyone simply got some Droknar's armor then it'd be fine. Yes, some people cannot/don't want to do that...but if that's the case...why go into a serious PvP arena? If you're not committed to the fight, or are looking for "fun" expect to lose a few.

ALSO

What about those twinkers who don't do it to mess with other people's fun? What if they wanted to do their missions with a bit of an upperhand (which they DO in fact deserve, for saving up and beating the game legit) If a level requirement were to be applied it would totally ruin these honest players.

Also, if you put a level 20 requirement on Droknar armor, they will simply go down a step and purchase the tier-two armor. If you put restrictions on all the armors, then that's just absurd, because some players are faster than others and may be a bit low level when they arrive at new locations. And lo and behold they are punished for being adventurous and daring with a stupid level restriction on the armor that they deserve to wear.

Asrial · Jun 22, 2005, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

Then, since others didn't want to be at a disadvantage, they did it as well.

..and suddenly, to be able to have fun (and win) in the level 10/15 arenas, Droknar's Forge runs will be REQUIRED.

Tell me that doesn't defeat the integrity of that area of the game.

Bottom line, there is NO reason for someone to be using gear that cannot be acquired in the areas around the level 10/15 arenas except to insure a better chance of victory for the purpose of being noticed and remembered by teammates and opponents.

Principa Discordia · Jun 22, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

True, but what about this scenario:

Someone out there was in fact a dickhead, and decided to twink. Then he (let's assume girls wouldn't do this kind of BS

) proceeded to own in low level PvP. Then, since others didn't want to be at a disadvantage, they did it as well. It is only because certain people who thought themselves chivalrous or noble decided NOT to continue this trend that people complain about the problem. If everyone simply got some Droknar's armor then it'd be fine. Yes, some people cannot/don't want to do that...but if that's the case...why go into a serious PvP arena? If you're not committed to the fight, or are looking for "fun" expect to lose a few.

So you're basically saying; "It's okay, because if anyone really cared about competing in the low-level arenas they'd finish the game and become twinkers." There's one big thing wrong with this, and I don't know what to say if you cannot see it: That philosophy would entirely defeat the point in even having low level arenas.

The low level arenas are there for people of lower levels to fight on a level playing field against similar (but not equal) opponents with items and abilities native to them. With what you're suggesting, they might as well remove the low level arenas altogether and tell everyone to go to the Hall Of Heroes if they want to fight anybody at all.

Quote:

ALSO

What about those twinkers who don't do it to mess with other people's fun? What if they wanted to do their missions with a bit of an upperhand (which they DO in fact deserve, for saving up and beating the game legit) If a level requirement were to be applied it would totally ruin these honest players.

There already is a level requirement of a sort, you cannot go past level 10 in terms of XP in the Ascalon arena. This obviously means that the arena is intended for people of level 10 and below to play amongst themselves without the headache they'd face fighting in a level 20 arena.

Quote:

Also, if you put a level 20 requirement on Droknar armor, they will simply go down a step and purchase the tier-two armor. If you put restrictions on all the armors, then that's just absurd, because some players are faster than others and may be a bit low level when they arrive at new locations. And lo and behold they are punished for being adventurous and daring with a stupid level restriction on the armor that they deserve to wear.

I'm not saying to but a level requirement on anything. What I'm saying is that I question some people's ability to handle competition without an "I win" button. I imagine, beyond all reasonable doubt, that these are the sorts of people who can't play video games without enabling God mode.

These people don't need a block on being able to do this, they simply need to question the point in it. If they want to fight in all their uber armour and weapons, what is stopping them from doing it in the endgame arenas? Honestly, answer me that.

eA-Zaku · Jun 22, 2005, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Maybe they were looking for an arena where the people have a set limit to their base HP. It's not really about the items.

Quote:

Bottom line, there is NO reason for someone to be using gear that cannot be acquired in the areas around the level 10/15 arenas except to insure a better chance of victory for the purpose of being noticed and remembered by teammates and opponents.

What's wrong with that? If you think that's wrong, then come out and say it. As for "defeating the integrity of the game" limiting players so linearly is defeating the integrity as well. As it is, GW gives the players freedom to go to high level areas when they are at low levels. Unless Arenanet completely illiminates the connection between Droknar's and Beacon's, then you can't argue the whole "area" ideal.

Bottom line is, it's not that the armor gives an unfair advantage (it is huge) but it's a FAIR advantage. It is open to all people to go and get the armor. Also, the people may be "abusing" the Pass in PvP, but if you stop this, you are taking away from non abusers as well. People will always find ways to abuse and exploit.

With all due respect, Principa Discordia, do you know the way every low level PvPer thinks? This is not the same game as Diablo 2, but the problem here is nearly the same:

Level 9 PvPing in Diablo, the bare minimum. Normal level 9's dish out around 100 damage to monsters. However, specialized level 9 PvPers trade and farm for items which can boost their damage output to the 1000's, effectively making "casual" level 9 PvPing impossible. Who is at fault? No one is what I would say. If you want to play level 9 PvP you need to get serious and get those items.

Same thing for Guild Wars. Maybe the players are looking for an arena where everyone is pretty much godly equipped, except the life totals are lower than level 20 arenas. Low level PvPing has always been a cult hit in many PvP games, so you never know. The Forge runners "abuse" is simply the introduction of elitism and the need for the godliest possible options for PvP. You can see this already introduced into the level 20 arenas, with people putting emphasis on unlocking all skills and upgrades.

Principa Discordia · Jun 22, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Now you're just repeating yourself and not even addressing my two main points.

A.) Low level PvP arenas are self-explanatory. They are for low level players to compete in on a level playing field when they are not out doing something else. No single character should be able to wipe out the entire opposing team effortlessley. Telling everyone to "twink or don't play" in the low level PvP arenas defeats their entire point, and by your logic they should simply remove them and let everyone compete in the Hall Of Heroes etc. right out of the character creation screens.

B.) Those people who can wipe out an entire opposing team effortlessley are obviously in an arena below their capabilities and should move on. There is no reason not to move on, unless they fear the challenge of an even fight without an "I win" button.

I'm keeping my patience, but until you address these two points I have no need to read what you're saying. You are repeating yourself but giving not explaining your point of view.

eA-Zaku · Jun 22, 2005, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Honestly, I'm trying my hardest to address those points. Maybe I'm just confusing. Anyways, here's another attempt. Hopefully you'll get what I'm saying:

A) If they don't get rid of the option for low levels wearing Droknar armor, then this will always happen. In that case, they will HAVE to get the armor, like I said. Yeah, I know it sucks. If they DO get rid of the option, that would ruin things for some people out there who aren't low level PvPing, but that would fix this problem.

I believe you CAN go HoH from the creation screen. Isn't there an option to HoH with a PvP character?

B) While it's true some may possibly be afraid of higher skilled opponents and prefer to pick on handicapped enemies, but some others might also prefer low level fighting. Less available skills, less life, etc. However, in this scenario, one would opt to get the best equipment, right? Who wouldn't? I wouldn't handicap myself just so people see me as a "cool casual gamer."

That is pretty much my opinion that I was trying to state on the two issues you brought up.

Asrial · Jun 22, 2005, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Going to side with Discordia on this one. We're starting to just go round and round in circles. I'm out too.

Principa Discordia · Jun 22, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Thanks for clarifying, that's all I needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

A) If they don't get rid of the option for low levels wearing Droknar armor, then this will always happen. In that case, they will HAVE to get the armor, like I said. Yeah, I know it sucks. If they DO get rid of the option, that would ruin things for some people out there who aren't low level PvPing, but that would fix this problem.

I believe you CAN go HoH from the creation screen. Isn't there an option to HoH with a PvP character?

I think I'm understanding your point in this particular matter, but I'm still not entirely sure. From what you've said in this thread, and in another, I'm seeing two distinct "attitudes" about the situation.

One is of a "well they should twink or they're not doing it right and have no business being in the arena" sort of tone, the other is of a "it's a shame they might be forced into twinking just to compete, but in the current system it's a fact of life." Could you possibly clarify which one is the correct one? There's a world of difference to me.

As for the actual issue at hand: I'm trying to avoid the "technical" side of this discussion, talking about things like hard level caps on armour and whatnot, because both sides rarely gain from such measures. I'm trying to stick to the morality side of it, and why people feel the actual need to set foot in a low level arena with such a huge advantage. Yes, they can get the equipment and they worked hard to do so, good for them, but really does it have any place in competition of this nature?

I'm of the belief that just because something can be done, it doesn't mean that it neccessarily should be done in the interest of doing something right. In better terms; I fail to see the fun, the challenge, or the skill in effortlessley squashing n00bs with a huge advantage I may have. The only thing stopping this sort of behaviour from being out-right cheating is that the system allows it, through design or through accident.

As for the Hall Of Heroes on a PvP character, doesn't that really just reaffirm my point? If low level players wanted high-end PvP, it's right there at the click of a button. If they didn't want an "under level 10 fight", they wouldn't be in the Ascalon arena in the first place, they'd be having fun whacking away with many of the skills on a PvP character. Hell, I can say this from experience; in the past when I've felt like going beyond my current character without doing the work, I've snapped my fingers and had a PvP character ready to play.

Quote:

B) While it's true some may possibly be afraid of higher skilled opponents and prefer to pick on handicapped enemies, but some others might also prefer low level fighting. Less available skills, less life, etc. However, in this scenario, one would opt to get the best equipment, right? Who wouldn't? I wouldn't handicap myself just so people see me as a "cool casual gamer."

That is pretty much my opinion that I was trying to state on the two issues you brought up.

You're right in that some people may simply prefer the low level fighting, but I'm affraid I don't think that it's low level fighting at all if you can wipe out an entire team effortlessley on the one condition that all your equipment is worlds ahead.

If they wanted to really have low level fights, they'd make a new character and get him to level 10. It only takes an afternoon. Maybe Arenanet should include a "low level insta-character" creation menu, the way there's one for fully templated characters.

eA-Zaku · Jun 22, 2005, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Well thank you for not giving up on me like a certain someone >.>

Quote:

One is of a "well they should twink or they're not doing it right and have no business being in the arena" sort of tone, the other is of a "it's a shame they might be forced into twinking just to compete, but in the current system it's a fact of life." Could you possibly clarify which one is the correct one? There's a world of difference to me.

Well, they may be a world of difference, but I accept them both. This is why I am not anti-twinking. I don't support it, but it is definitely a necessity if you want to beat other twinkers, and I definitely am not going to cry/bitch about it. I see the necessity to twink as a fact and if I ever pick up level 10 PvP I am well prepared to twink, even knowing that twinking is generally frowned upon.

HOWEVER, I would probably do some "real" low level PvPing using normal armor just for the heck of it. But I will expect to run into the twinkers, and I will expect to lose :/

Also I think it's a shame that those people who wish to have "maximum low level PvP" as I call it, will have to relegate themselves to either level 20 PvP to be "fair" or else they will have to purposely handicap themselves when they have access to Droknar's armor.

Makkert · Jun 22, 2005, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Anyway you look at it, its just bad taste of the player.
probably he got his ass kicked to much in high level, and got frustrated. now trying to ruin the game for others. bravo.
this is a game of skill, and he is trying to bend the odds in his favor by equipment and stuff he shouldn't have. sure, one can argue that if he can get it, he can play it. but i doubt the devs intended the starter arena that way.
then again, arena is like russian roulette anyway. you never know if the skills you bring will work out in the team you enter.

eA-Zaku · Jun 22, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Makkert, I'm afraid you are assuming that. Even if you spoke to a few of those people, not all of them are "losers who get their asses handed to them so now they pick on noobs"

I agree with your Russian roulette analogy, though. These people who get Droknar's armor are simply attempting to lower their chances of blowing their head off. Is that wrong? It is an option to everyone. Even those without a guild can get Droknar's armor. It may take a bit longer but it's possible. Also, they could join a guild who will perform these services.

Principa Discordia · Jun 22, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I agree that this is a game of Russian Roulette and that it's okay to lower your chances of being the one to die... But... You do that through practise, and through communication with your team (easily done before the gates open unless your team is composed entirely of morons). But, unfortunately, these people aren't just "increasing their chances" of surviving the Russian Roulette, they're loading the gun with blanks.

It's an "I win" button.

I still stand by my theory that these are people who cannot cope in higher level arenas.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkiess

It's a great storyline, don't get me wrong about that

are you and I playing the same game? This storyline is one of the worst story lines of any game i've ever played....it lacks content in so many areas.

the gameplay certainly makes up for the storyline...but it's completely obvious that the storyline only exists because they HAD to put it in....